Public Key Podcast

Crypto in Israel: Growth & Regulatory Challenges: Ep 71

August 29, 2023 | by Chainalysis Team

Episode 71 of the Public Key podcast is here! Israel is well known as a leader in crypto projects, cyber security and seizures of illicit proceeds from terrorist financing. In this episode, we speak to Yosi Biton who is the Partner, Head of Forensic and Compliance Services at KPMG Israel, to discuss the regulatory challenges and driving factors behind Israel’s position leading the global crypto industry.

You can listen or subscribe now on Spotify, Apple, or Audible. Keep reading for a full preview of episode 71.

Public Key Episode 71: Cultural influence and government programs encouraging tech and blockchain founders in Israel

Israel is well known to be a leader in crypto projects, cyber security and seizures of illicit proceeds from terrorist financing. 

In this episode, host Ian Andrews explores what factors have contributed to Israel’s tech growth with Yosi Biton (Partner, Head of Forensic and Compliance Services, KPMG Israel.)

Yosi explains how cultural influence, government programs, and military units have contributed to strong cyber security and blockchain technology-focused startups. 

He emphasizes the importance of regulatory clarity and the need for companies to comply with AML (anti-money laundering) and other crypto compliance measures and explains why he believes that smart contracts, digital currencies, and DeFi will be the future.

Quote of the episode

“For example, if we have a crypto exchange company that asks for our services and if the services involve traditional companies together with the crypto or more  innovative companies, we want to make sure that our clients, the traditional clients, are doing business with other companies that are licensed or regulated. And we don’t want to be in a position that in the future, someone from the regulator will come to our traditional clients, that used to do everything by the book and tell them you shouldn’t provide the services that you are providing.”  – Yosi Biton (Partner, Head of Forensic and Compliance Services, KPMG Israel)

Minute-by-minute episode breakdown

  • (2:22) – Introduction and discussion about the state of blockchain and cyber security in Israel 
  • (4:18) – Cultural influence and government / military programs encouraging tech founders in Israel
  • (8:20) – KPMG’s perspective on cryptocurrency and blockchain industry 
  • (12:06) – Regulatory clarity and the need for licenses in the crypto industry and CBDC’s and potential for digital shekel 
  • (18:05) – Discussion on DeFi and the need for compliance in the industry
  • (22:02) – Tel Aviv Stock Exchange launches framework for crypto brokerage services
  • (26:21) – Regulatory challenges and opportunities in the Israeli crypto market
  • (30:37) – Future predictions for the adoption of smart contracts and digital currencies 

 

Related resources

Check out more resources provided by Chainalysis that perfectly complement this episode of the Public Key.

Speakers on today’s episode

  • Ian Andrews * Host * (Chief Marketing Officer, Chainalysis) 
  • Yosi Biton (Partner, Head of Forensic and Compliance Services, KPMG Israel)

This website may contain links to third-party sites that are not under the control of Chainalysis, Inc. or its affiliates (collectively “Chainalysis”). Access to such information does not imply association with, endorsement of, approval of, or recommendation by Chainalysis of the site or its operators, and Chainalysis is not responsible for the products, services, or other content hosted therein.

Our podcasts are for informational purposes only, and are not intended to provide legal, tax, financial, or investment advice. Listeners should consult their own advisors before making these types of decisions. Chainalysis has no responsibility or liability for any decision made or any other acts or omissions in connection with your use of this material.

Chainalysis does not guarantee or warrant the accuracy, completeness, timeliness, suitability or validity of the information in any particular podcast and will not be responsible for any claim attributable to errors, omissions, or other inaccuracies of any part of such material. 

Unless stated otherwise, reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by Chainalysis. The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Views and opinions expressed by Chainalysis employees are those of the employees and do not necessarily reflect the views of the company. 

—

Connect with Chainalysis

Website: https://www.chainalysis.com/

Contact Us: https://www.chainalysis.com/contact-us/ 

Blog & Insights: https://blog.chainalysis.com

Reserve your copy of the 2023 Crypto Crime Report: https://go.chainalysis.com/2023-crypto-crime-report.html 

Chainalysis Podcast: https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/category/podcast/ 

The 2022 Global Crypto Adoption Index: https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/2022-global-crypto-adoption-index/

Transcript

Ian:

Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Public Key. This is your host, Ian Andrews. Today I’m joined by Yosi Biton, who is the head of blockchain and cryptocurrency at KPMG based in Tel Aviv. Yosi, welcome to the show.

Yosi:

Thank you, Ian. Thank you very, very much. Good to be here and thank you for having me.

Ian:

Now we’ve had quite a few people who are founders from Israel. Crypto seems to be a booming industry from my distance, but as I mentioned in our pre show warmup here, I’ve actually never been to Israel before. It’s one of the places near the top of the list for me to go travel to and experience. Maybe for our guests who I imagine many of our listeners are similar to me, have never had the opportunity to be there in person, paint a picture for us about the state of blockchain technology, cryptocurrency in Israel. What what’s going on right now?

Yosi:

So first, for those who never been in Israel, definitely it’s a place to be. People that like to party good beaches and good vibes. Tel Aviv, definitely in Israel in general is the best place to come, and we love to host people outside of Israel. Everyone is always welcome. And I think in Israel in general, the tech industry and everyone knows that Israel is a tech center. It’s a tech hub and blockchain and crypto is, it’s not different than that. We have a very, very strong and a lot of different type of blockchain and different type of technology and different type of use cases here in Israel. You can find from crypto companies that do only trade, buy, hold and stuff, very general stuff that in any other places around the world. But you can also find lots of cyber companies that specialize in crypto like Cyber and other good companies that… Well Cyber become to be very trendy now, especially in the blockchain space. And Israel is very well known in their cyber capabilities.

And in blockchain, it’s the same basically. And we are also technology for lightning and other solutions you can find here in Israel. So it’s a good place for blockchain companies to develop themself and I feel like we have a very strong industry. We recently published a research that we done on the blockchain industry here in Israel and it was amazed to find out the number of global companies that started their way in Israel. I think we have Fireblocks and eToro are the most famous ones in the industry. And of course there are others like Coindash and COTI, very good and well-known companies. So I think for your question, we have a very strong industry and it’s still kicking. We see a lot of movements and develop in this space.

Ian:

It is amazing for a country of relatively few people. I feel like Israel has the highest concentration of tech founders of any country I can think of. And so I’ve always wondered is it a cultural influence? Is there some sort of almost government program that encourages people to become founders? Because I can think of maybe a hundred companies that I know where the founders, we’ve had a few on the podcast, are Israeli. So there’s something special I think about the tech ecosystem that’s happening there.

Yosi:

So definitely it’s a combination. Yeah, there is a government plan to bring more people to the tech industry. But I can give you an example. My nephew, she just recently finished her survey in the army. She was in 8200 in technology and the first thing she did after the army, it’s to start a new startup. That’s the first thing she wanted to do. Not to go for it to travel outside of Israel or not something else. I think it’s something cultural started to be more and more that lots of people want to be part of the journey and part of the process to do the first exit or to have your own tech company or to have some kind of influence on the world.

Ian:

8200 for people that aren’t familiar is a famous military unit in inside of the Israeli army. And so many companies have been founded by alumni of the 8200, which is this technology unit. I think many of the cybersecurity companies that people are familiar with draw their roots back to 8200 on their founding path. And it’s been interesting to me when we start to talk about cryptocurrency. The cryptography part of cryptocurrency, I think there’s something that lends itself particularly well to some of the training that people have in military service going through organizations like 8200, you’re doing a lot of work around cryptography and network security that sets up a lot of the technical capacity to launch a project or a product into the blockchain space.

Yosi:

Definitely. And not only that but also intelligence capabilities that it’s very important to the blockchain world, especially around, financial crimes and forensics. So I think the skills that they’re getting in those special units, first of all, it’s the best school you can get three years that it’s only you’re using the I end technology and you are exposed to real issues, really heavy issues that I don’t think any kids like 18 years old around the world is dealing with. So it’s giving you a lot of skills to the real world and to influence or to think about solutions that are for more simple troubles or more simple issues, but you have a very good solution to deal with them.

So definitely not only cyber but also data analytics and AI. So the army is creating a lot of good people to have a good influence on the tech industry and globally, not just in Israel. And I think one of the reason you can see a lot of startups and tech companies are not serving the Israeli market, but very fast going outside, Israel is a sandbox. Not more than that,

Ian:

I would argue it’s more than that. But I’m curious, so you’ve been at KPMG I think your whole career?

Yosi:

Most of my career.

Ian:

Most of your career. All my data comes from LinkedIn too.

Yosi:

I’m new to that.

Ian:

Data quality could sometimes be an issue.

Yosi:

Very new to that.

Ian:

So I’m fascinated. KPMG, I’m sure everyone listening has heard of the organization before. Global consulting practice, world renowned. What’s the climate inside of KPMG right now when it comes to cryptocurrency? Is it skepticism, is it embracing it? I know when you and I had the opportunity to meet in Budapest, you were busy flying all over the world to get involved in different types of projects.

Yosi:

Definitely.

Ian:

But I’m curious, what does the rest of the company think about the work you do?

Yosi:

So, probably as you know KPMG, it’s a group of subsidiaries. So we have around 150 different KPMG firms around the world. So the culture and the risk tolerance defer between different jurisdictions. But I think there is a curve. The firm is much more open to do project and to serve the industry. It’s not something we had in the past. So in the past, you’re right, definitely most of the other big four and many other traditional institutions were very skeptic about the crypto industry. But definitely on the last two or three years we can see more opening to the crypto industry and we have a variety of different clients and we can see that around the world. So we are working with the US, we’re working with Norway, we’re working with Spain and France and Singapore and some of those places and Canada of course, and some of those places didn’t add tolerance in the past and we found ourself quite behind the other big four in anything that relate to crypto services.

But I think now we’re definitely in a good place. We’re and the amount of projects and the size of the projects and the variety is becoming more and more every day. So I’m very pleased where we are now in this ecosystem. And I think it’s a journey also for us to understand. We started our journey in crypto in 2020, but before that, I think we didn’t add enough clarity from regulators for us, as a KPMG with a huge advisory firm, to provide services to areas that the regulator is skeptic or don’t say any sound, what you think about this industry, especially in Israel. I think lots of the regulations and lots of the sounds that we are hearing from regulator came only on the last few years and it’s feeling making us feeling much more comfortable providing services to this industry.

Ian:

And I’m curious when you talk about regulatory clarity, drill in on that a little bit more. What are the things, because I think people use that term a lot and I’m not sure that everyone means the same thing when they say it. I suspect there’s some people in the crypto industry when they say regulatory clarity, what they really mean is a set of rules that allows them to operate their cryptocurrency business in a fair and legitimate way.

So they don’t want clarity that says digital assets are illegal and you know, can’t run an exchange business, for example. That would be probably not what they’re looking for. But I would imagine KPMG sitting in an advisory position, maybe you’re working with some of the government governments directly on helping them shape regulations, you’re also working with crypto businesses and folks who are looking to enter the space. What does clarity look like for your organization?

Yosi:

So definitely the understanding that anything that relate to crypto and put aside regulation for a moment if it’s regulated or not, I think we are in a place that we are not asking ourself if it’s legal or not. So we are not in that question. Definitely we had a lot of discussions with different bodies, governmental bodies here in Israel, tax authorities, Bank of Israel, the Israeli Security Authorities. So the understanding what is legal and what is not, definitely it’s not there. But if we want to understand what type of regulation you need to impose of yourself or if you need to be licensed or not. So for example, if we have a crypto exchange company that ask for our services and if the services is involved, traditional companies together with the crypto or more innovative companies, we want to make sure that our clients, the traditional clients, are doing business with other companies that are licensed or regulated.

And we don’t want to be in a position that in the future someone from the regulator will come to our traditional clients that used to do everything by the book and tell them this and this, you shouldn’t do stuff like that or shouldn’t have done or provide the services that you are providing. That can cause a lot of reputational issues to our clients. Financial damage, lawsuits, other stuff that we can imagine.

So we want to make sure that we’re doing things in the right way. Some of the time it’s very slow and it’s not because of us, it’s because of the regulation here in Israel. And some of the times it’s more in terms of risk tolerance that the banking industry has or not with respect to the crypto market. So I think regulatory environment or regulatory boundaries, it defers between different use cases in different areas.

Ian:

Now I know you mentioned the government can be quite slow, but from the outside it seems like the Israeli government is maybe leading on their exploration of digital assets there there’s been discussion of a central bank issue, digital currency. I think I’ve read about a pilot project that has some of government bonds potentially being issued on chain.

Yosi:

Project Eden. Yeah, definitely.

Ian:

Yeah, tell us more about that project.

Yosi:

Yeah, so project Eden is a very nice and cool use case. It’s basically a minister of finance here in Israel is issuing… Well, it’s a POC now so it’s not live yet but it’s together with the Israeli stock exchange. They’re doing a project together to issue a governmental bond on a blockchain, on EVM technology. And it’s in both ways. So in the one hand you have a digital bond and in the other side you will have digital shekel and the idea is to clear the atom transactions using smart contract. So it’s a really cool and nice way to explore blockchain technology to improve the traditional financial industry here in Israel. And it’s a good path that the government is going to, especially around the technology. So we always split our discussions between blockchain and crypto because crypto involves also other tokens and digital assets and stuff like that. While blockchain is more about using the technology to improve current process or traditional one.

Ian:

In the case of the government bond being issued on chain, my understanding is at least in the pilot it’s a private chain, but I’ve heard discussions that maybe in the future they’re open to enabling some sort of bridge out to say the Ethereum network.

Yosi:

Yeah, definitely. So the idea is to set up the ground for other future use cases and to open the network to other players and as you mentioned to create bridges. And also this involves today 12 different players, all the very global and local banks. And I can share with you the list is very impressive list of entities that are connected to this pilot. So definitely it’s possessed the Israeli market in a good place comparing to other places around the world.

Ian:

Yeah. Now talk a little bit about the CBDC project. I think this is interesting. We’ve had the CEO of Nahmii on the podcast before who their company is doing work in Norway and a few other places on a platform they’ve built specifically for CBDCs. And it seems like the discussion I’ve observed around CBDCs is between retail and wholesale. Meaning as a citizen can I put a digital shekel or a digital dollar into a wallet on my phone maybe and buy things at the store with it. Or is it really a mechanism to improve the clearing and settlement process between a bank and the central bank, more of a wholesale rather than retail function? I’m curious what’s the perspective in Israel and is it both one or neither?

Yosi:

So I think a couple of things. I think definitely the second. I think there is a lot of interest here in Israel and lots of work is done. How to improve the payment mechanism here in Israel and the way payments are working more immediate and more faster payments first of all locally and maybe in the future globally also. But I think in terms of the government, there is the Ministry of Finance plans to the 2024 and into the future. And I don’t think the Israel government put any limits who will issue the digital shekel.

So it gave the option, it could be Bank of Israel but it can also be traditional financial institutions like any bank here in Israel or any other reputational company that want to issue the digital shekel. And definitely I think in the future we will see one or two at least of the banks here in Israel that are issuing digital shekel because everyone understand and I think yesterday I think there was something in Hong Kong that was published to urge the government to issue a digital Hong Kong dollar to compete the USDC.

And I think everyone understand that all the valuable benefits that there are with digital currency. So I don’t know if we will wait to the government or Bank of Israel to issue the digital shekel, but definitely it’ll come from other local companies or banks that will issue that.

Ian:

We’ve seen that happen in Australia. I think National Australia Bank was the first one, NAB, to issue an Australian dollar, stablecoin, which is available I think on chain in kind of a limited capacity right now. But they’ve got plans to expand. I’m curious how you think about a bank issued current versus government issued versus say a third party like circle coming in and having a shekel denominated version of their stablecoin.

Yosi:

Well believe me, I’m on board. If circle wants to come to Israel to issue a shekel, yeah that could be great. Maybe things we’ll move faster. Well, the banking industry here in Israel is, there is lots of trust in the industry and most of the payments or all of them are going through the banking system in Israel. So it’s only natural that they will issue the digital shekels. I think the cost of clearing all the payments here in Israel especially, we have a few apps like Bit and PayBox, the operational costs are very expensive. So I think anything that can help reduce those costs, definitely something that they are thinking of. and I think one of the ways to improve the payment system is definitely true blockchain and all those different technologies.

Ian:

Yeah, well that’s going to be exciting to watch. So changing topics a little bit. You recently posted on LinkedIn an analysis of the Department of Treasury had put out guidance around illicit finance and the role that DeFi plays or doesn’t play in that I’m curious, give me start with broad perspective on DeFi and then maybe talk about some of the opportunities that you see as you’re doing advisory work for your clients. Is DeFi something that you encourage them to be exploring and getting into? Is it something that you see as being potentially too risky? Where do you fall?

Yosi:

Well, I do believe in the technology. Smart Contracts is definitely the future. All the interaction, I think we covered that in Budapest when we talk. So I do believe that Smart Contract is the future. I’m doing report transactions between banks so it’s only makes sense that the entire interaction will be on the Smart Contract. If DeFi protocol, what I think about DFI protocol, I think it’s now in the interest rate market there is a slowdown because people are not getting the same rates that they used to get in different protocols and the understanding that at the end of the day investors want to meet their money.

And the way it’s structured today and all the issues that are AML and other compliance issues that are with Defi, it’s a burden or put some limit to bring more and more people to this industry. So I know in Israel there is a lot of tolerance for crypto investors if they invested in crypto and they want to make their money. So as long it was not in DeFi protocols, that’s fine. But once people are getting into the DeFi, it’s causing a lot of attic and a lot of issues. In terms of the banking system.

Ian:

Is that concern primarily because you don’t have a KYC program?

Yosi:

Yeah, exactly.

Ian:

The DeFi protocol.

Yosi:

We are working with a lot of DeFi companies that have their own smart contracts and Dow policy and stuff like that. So you want investors, you want to do business with traditional. With the traditional industry, you want people to get more and more and to create more traffic on the protocol. And there is an understanding today that if I want all of those together, if I want a private equity to invest on me in me and we are working with a lot of private equity that specialize in the crypto industry. So they want to know that the investor’s money is in well invested and the protocol or the company knows what they’re doing and not in interact with illicit activity. So if you’re not doing anything that relate to compliance, it can cause a lot of issues to your investors, to your clients, to your partners.

And I think today there is a lot of understanding from those companies that they need to do more and to be, I don’t say to be regulated or to come knock on the regulator door and say, well I want to be regulated, I want to get a license, what should I do? But there is a lot of things you can do from the place they are today to be fully regulated and it’s definitely risk management. How do you manage your risk and things you can do if to track what type of wallet address you interact with and what liquidity pools you interact with. Different story, different angles. Anyone and I know that most of those companies know what to do, how to manage their risk.

Ian:

It seems to me like we’re in this moment where the last few years has actually proven the DeFi concept, like this idea that we can clear billions of dollars through this smart contract system. I think if someone had pitched that to me five or seven years ago, I would’ve been highly skeptical. I’m like that just doesn’t make sense. There’s a reason all these intermediaries in the financial system exist. It’s safeguards effect effectively on transfer of funds at scale. And through all the turmoil that the crypto industry’s seen, DeFi has performed I think amazingly well we haven’t seen any protocols breaking or massive loss of funds. I think security is probably an area where there’s still in the maturing phase. But it really does seem to come down to this situation of regulation and particularly around protection against co-mingling of funds with illicit activity. Like nobody on the institutional side wants to have their money sitting alongside a criminal.

Yosi:

Right. Definitely.

Ian:

Because the penalty for that is just too high or a sanctioned individual where there’s strict criminal liability there. There’s zero tolerance for that is what I’ve observed in the traditional financial services industry. And so it feels like there’s a market opportunity for a protocol to be able to solve some of this problem case where they have the right technology layer, it’s been implemented in a useful way if they can get the compliance piece figured out. I feel like there’s a ton of institutional demand that’s pent-up waiting for that solution to exist. I don’t know if you agree.

Yosi:

No, definitely. There are some difficulties. I don’t imagine any of our clients starting to do KYC on the people that connect to the protocol. So definitely that’s one of the issues because that’s break the entire idea behind blockchain and the anonymity and stuff like that. So I think there is a path. And we’re talking only a and mail, but a lot of the DeFi protocols, they also need to be concerned from market abuse and the fraud act and all those things that it’s very important for your investors and clients and anyone that connect to your protocol and work with your protocols. So it’s not only AML but there are other illegal things you need to consider and you need to monitor.

Definitely. We see a lot of companies that arise around the cyber to provide cyber solutions to different protocols, how to detect any fraudulent activity on the protocol because reputational reputation of everything for the protocols, once you were bridged, once you were announced to be supporting illegal activity like tornado, no one will work with you. Most of the most monitoring systems will define you as a red or yellow protocol and everyone knows what red category in Chainalysis stands for.

And we are doing a lot of investigation crypto investigations like funds DD and I know that every time we are investigating on the Chainalysis tool, if we see the protocol is defined as illicit, it’s a no-go for us. And I think one of the things that important for a protocol is to be considered as a legit or low level risk so people can invest more and more and everyone knows that.

Ian:

Yeah, exactly. I think crossing that chasm to legitimacy is what has to happen to unlock the next level of growth in that industry inside.

Yosi:

And I imagine we have a client, we will not mention any names here on the call, but it’s a pure DeFi like they’re working on with a Dow philosophy and they have a full understanding that they need to have AML policy, AML procedures and everything that they can do in order to manage any financial crime risk. It’s so important for them because they have 50 people on the other side building that are working to develop their protocol and no one wants that everything will go away just because you didn’t do the things you should do or the minimum things you should do.

Ian:

Yeah, separate topic. Recently, Tel Aviv stock exchange laid out a framework that allows regulated exchange members to start offering crypto brokerage services. I was going to ask, is this a big deal?

Yosi:

There was a regulatory arbitrage here in Israel. Banks in Israel were allowed to provide this type of services to their clients as long as Bank of Israel and the banking supervisor is saying it’s okay. They need to pre-approve the service. The Capital Market Authority issued terms and conditions how to be licensed to provide this type of services. And the last piece of the capital market or the financial industry in Israel was the Israeli stock exchange members that provide investments and brokerage services to their clients. They were left aside. So for them to offer this type of services, they had to get the stock exchange in Israel, the Israeli stock exchange approval for doing that.

And for that they had to change the entire agreements and regulations for them to do so. We work together with Israeli stock exchange. We as KPMG work together with Israeli stock exchange and the stock exchange members. What is the best way with minimum risk that to start moving the market to a place that clients can buy, hold, and sell crypto through the stock exchange members.

Ian:

So it’s buy, hold and sell. This is actually going to be my next-

Yosi:

Closed loop. So you can buy from your broker and you can sell it. You cannot move the digital assets from your broker to your private wallet. So it’s on a way it’ll be there. Yeah, it’s definitely will get there. Step one, yeah.

Ian:

Step one on a journey.

Yosi:

0.5

Ian:

I was going to ask, we just had CEO of WonderFi, Dean Skurka, and the CEO of Figment, Lorien Gabel, on the podcast last week. And they have just launched a regulated staking service in Canada, which is amazing when you contrast it to what’s happening in the United States. And they drew some important considerations I think when talking about protocol or network staking versus some of the things they often get referred to as staking that are really borrow land or interest bearing type accounts. But where do those things fall? Everything from network protocol staking in terms of being allowed in the Israeli market?

Yosi:

Yeah, so definitely we’re not there yet. Definitely. So, okay. The licenses that we have here in Israel as of today, all of them are buy, hold, sale. Without any yield products, definitely not staking. And I believe that in the future we will be there, but it’s taking time. Regulators need to understand more and more about this specific market, the risk, the technologies. And I have to say that everything that is not going on now in the US, it’s making our life not not that easy because Israeli regulators and the entire traditional industry in Israel is always looking to the US and the issues or barriers that are becoming more and more often in the US causing our market a lot of issues in and draw back a lot of the movement that we had until now.

Ian:

I see we’re causing problems is what you’re telling me.

Yosi:

Yeah, definitely.

Ian:

Well, but there is maybe some light at the end of the tunnel because I look to Europe where MiCA seems to be making good progress and it seems to be setting I think very reasonable standards and rules on some parts of the crypto industry. And I see in Middle East specifically in Dubai with the creation of VARA and the welcoming of the crypto industry into that market. Is that having any positive influence for Israel and maybe generally, what are your thoughts on those two areas of the world?

Yosi:

So we see a lot of movement from companies that in the past asked or wanted to work in the US now moving more and more through Europe and Asia. So definitely there is a change in the way the Israeli market is working now. We see a lot of companies that work very hard for their Bit license and not actively work with the license. So we need to change.

Going back to the last question about the Israeli stock exchange, one of the things that the Israeli stock exchange put is that any Israeli company or institutions that work want to work in the crypto space that is working with a third party should work with a third party, with a Bit license. But the problem is now that a lot of those companies have regulatory issues, and we need now to convince the Israeli stock exchange to move some of the terms to third parties in Europe. So it’s causing us some changes, but definitely we see a lot of movement through Europe and also Dubai. There is a huge market in the Emirates and we see a lot of movements also from the companies to those markets in those countries.

Ian:

It seems like the classic tension between innovation and job creation against concerns about individual investor risk as well as this kind of crime and illicit activity, which I know that recently KPMG and Chainalysis got together and hosted a round table discussing terrorist financing.

Yosi:

Yeah, definitely.

Ian:

And then there was this huge news that came out last week where Israel government was able to shut down a cryptocurrency terrorist financing network that had been funding Hamas and some of the groups operating out of Iran. Maybe talk a little bit about was that a big deal?

Yosi:

With respect to the Hamas and all those issues, I think yes and no, definitely yes because it see that if you want to investigate to capture and to avoid any criminal activity, terrorist activity using the crypto or blockchain, you can avoid it. So there are some tools today. It’s not in the past. Any terrorist could transfer funds from one way, from the one end to the other. So it’s good news in terms of the capabilities that we have to not allow it or to manage the risk.

The other thing is, well I have to say no because people in Israel, like the traditional ones and all those low risk service that sitting in front of their paper or television see that terrorists use Bitcoin to launder or to move funds, although it was only 1.7 million. It’s such a small amount. All those, I came from banking investigations like criminal investigations that were done by DOJ or SEC that relate to AML and comparing it to other use cases or other cases, investigations that there were in the global banking market. It’s such a small amount of money, it’s like nothing to compare. So I think there are some good ways to look at that and not that good. It’s depends who is reading the article, I think.

Ian:

Yeah, that’s right. I think it’s often crypto gets a bad reputation because no one says, “Oh, criminals have used dollars or shekels to do their crime. Therefore, the dollars or shekels that are bad.” It’s the criminals that are bad. But I think in this case we have a new technology and so the technology catches some of the blame for the act.

Yosi:

Definitely. At the end of the day you’re in business with dollars.

Ian:

That’s right, that’s right. Well this has been a fascinating conversation. Last question for you as we wrap up is what’s on the horizon for you? As you get to talk to regulators around the world. You’re talking to central banks, you get to work with DeFi companies and traditional finance organizations coming into the space. What do you see coming in the future? And I know it’s hard to predict too far out in the world of crypto, but as far out as you’re comfortable going, I’m curious on your-

Yosi:

So, definitely few missions. My first missions is to bring all the KPMG members to the place that we are now. That’s one of my goals for the next three years and I’m a believer of everything that relates to technology. Definitely believe that banks and the traditional financial institution definitely will use smart contracts and digital quarantine in the future. I don’t think any other ways. Payments is one of the hot topics and you see what lightning technology can do for payments and it is just a matter of time until we will get there. I know that a lot of traditional companies that are working in South America already use digital currencies and the adoption of digital currency will be more and more and I have a vision like 24/7 digital assets, digital stocks to digital any stocks, regular stocks are in the market and digital currency. And to bring all of those together in one umbrella, in one exchange that will be working on Smart Contract. That definitely from my perspective will be the future.

Ian:

That’s amazing. We need to do an episode on Lightning Network.

Yosi:

Definitely.

Ian:

I think quite a few companies have come on the scene in the last year that are doing interesting things on Lightning and

Yosi:

Also, here in Israel Breez is doing wonderful things in Lightning.

Ian:

Outstanding. Well, Yosi, this has been hugely informative. Thanks so much for taking the time on this today.

Yosi:

Thank you very much today.

Ian:

I appreciate it.

Yosi:

Thank You. Have a good day.

 

 

BlockchainChainalysisCryptocrypto podcastCryptocurrencyCybercrimeNFTsPodcastPrivacyPublic Key